普拉昌達(dá)同志談尼泊爾當(dāng)前形勢（一）

普拉昌達(dá)同志談尼泊爾當(dāng)前形勢（一）

（譯者注：這是普拉昌達(dá)同志最近在加德滿都接受兩名新聞記者的聯(lián)合采訪文稿。關(guān)于尼泊爾革命，譯者想談?wù)剛€人的一點看法，尼泊爾革命的成敗最終主要取決于尼泊爾革命同志和尼泊爾人民。別國的革命同志可以提些有益的建議，但是不要把自己的意志強加于尼泊爾共產(chǎn)黨（毛主義），如果建議變成了干涉，那就會幫倒忙。同志們應(yīng)該按照偉大領(lǐng)袖金日成同志的主體思想要求，讓尼泊爾共產(chǎn)黨（毛主義）和尼泊爾人民自己獨立自主地解決尼泊爾革命的問題。無論將來尼泊爾革命成功或失敗，都會為尼泊爾共產(chǎn)主義運動和21世紀(jì)國際共產(chǎn)主義運動增添寶貴的經(jīng)驗和教訓(xùn)） 

問：People supported the 12-point understanding of November 2005,between the Maoists and the Seven Party Alliance (SPA), and came on to the streets demanding the abolition of monarchy. It is felt that the agreement of April 25 is incomplete. However, you have come overground and talks are now on. How are things proceeding?

問：人民支持2005年11月毛主義者和七黨聯(lián)盟簽定的12點協(xié)議，并且走上街頭要求廢除君主制。4月25日協(xié)議看起來不夠完整。不過，您已經(jīng)公開露面并接受采訪。您認(rèn)為形勢會如何發(fā)展呢？

答：At the time we forged the understanding with the SPA in November 2005,we had foreseen the sequence of events. That is why we strongly opposed the demand for the restoration of Parliament as a slogan in the movement. We tried to convince the SPA to move directly towards an interim government and elections for the Constitutional Assembly (CA). The Nepali Congress, specifically Girija Prasad Koirala, disagreed. We already guessed at that time that this slogan of reinstatement of the House of Representatives (HoR) might leave a loophole for the king to take advantage. And this reinstated HoR may be the tool for the leaders of the political parties to reach an agreement with the king. We suspected then that such possibilities would dilute the achievements of the movement. Because of our suspicions of these dangers and our observations, we did not accept the slogans of the SPA when we agreed to enter into an understanding. Our party was well aware that the politics in Nepal was like a frozen pond that needed to be destroyed in order to open the way for a new political environment.If it develops accordingly, then further understanding may develop for the election of the CA and the institutionalisation of Loktantrik Ganatantra (democratic republic). If things don’t happen according to our thinking, then this understanding will create a greater people’s movement. If one or another party betrays the movement, they would be left exposed to the masses politically, paving the way for the third phase of the movement to come into play. So, that was our firm belief. Observing and analysing this situation, we reached the understanding. Now, we are at the crossroads.

答：2005年11月，在我們同七黨聯(lián)盟簽定協(xié)議時，我們就預(yù)見到事情的發(fā)展?fàn)顩r

。因此我們強烈反對把恢復(fù)議會作為人民運動的口號。我們努力說服七黨聯(lián)盟直接成立臨時政府和進(jìn)行制憲會議選舉。但是，尼泊爾大會黨，尤其是科依拉那不同意。我們當(dāng)時已經(jīng)估計到恢復(fù)議會的口號會被國王利用。這個被恢復(fù)的議會會成為政黨領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人同國王合作的工具。我們當(dāng)時估計那樣可能會喪失人民運動的成果。由于我們認(rèn)識到這種危險，在我們簽定協(xié)議時，我們沒有接受七黨聯(lián)盟的口號。我們黨清楚地認(rèn)識到尼泊爾政治就象一個冰凍的池塘，它應(yīng)該被鑿開以便為創(chuàng)造新的政治環(huán)境開辟道路。如果尼泊爾政治正常發(fā)展，那么我們就會在制憲會議選舉和民主共和國方面進(jìn)一步達(dá)成共識。否則，就會造成一場更大規(guī)模的人民運動。如果政黨們背叛人民運動，那他們就會在政治上被人民識破，并為人民運動的第三階段鋪平道路。我們堅信這一點。通過對當(dāng)前形勢的觀察和分析，我們得出了這個結(jié)論。現(xiàn)在，我們正處于十字路口。

問：On the eight-point agreement of May 16, 2006 between the Maoists and the SPA, some newspapers commented on this as the formation of a new front, but it was opposed by the leaders of the political parties from the very next day itself.The present situation appears pretty much the same as on May 16. What are the contradictions and hurdles that created such circumstances?

問：關(guān)于2006年6月16日（譯者糾正）毛主義者和七黨聯(lián)盟的8點協(xié)議，當(dāng)時一些報紙認(rèn)為那是形勢進(jìn)步到一個新的高度，但是，第二天這種評論就被各政黨領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人否定了。當(dāng)前形勢與6月16日時非常相似，那么，是什么矛盾和困難造成今天這樣的形勢呢？

答：Of course, the eight-point agreement of Baluwatar was a very important

understanding. The Baluwatar Agreement untied the knot of Nepali politics which was an obstacle since the 1950s. For the first time, the eight point

agreement had created a political arrangement for realising the right of the people in its true sense. It could be said that Parliament was the venue for foreign powers to play their role. The next place is the palace. When the political role of the palace and Parliament remains constant, then people never get their rights. We fought every time, but power remained in the same place. The Baluwatar Agreement clearly demonstrated the power beyond Parliament. It indicated the decisiveness of the State power in the hands of revolutionary people. The seven parties and we signed this agreement.

We understood it as a great event in the process of historical resolution.

When this agreement was made public, and when I appealed to the people through the press conference that we are moving towards a new experiment, then influential power centres, especially the United States, suddenly felt great pain. The very next day I heard that the US has been making provocative statements, saying that the entire country had followed the Maoists’ agenda. Second, Delhi went cold with fear. That was because during the Delhi visit of Koirala he had reached an understanding for not dissolving Parliament. Ten days later, we reached an agreement on the dissolution of Parliament. When Delhi asked them, “What did you do?” then the leaders of the parties, who are actually more dependent on foreigners, started crying the next morning. This is the real cause. Their mouths have opened here, but the reality is that only after Delhi and Washington started speaking the real problem commenced.

答：當(dāng)然，巴魯華特的8點協(xié)議是非常重要的協(xié)議。巴魯華特協(xié)議解開了自1950年代以來成為尼泊爾政治難題的繩結(jié)。8點協(xié)議第一次為真正實現(xiàn)人民的權(quán)利創(chuàng)造了一種政治環(huán)境。應(yīng)該說議會是外國勢力發(fā)揮作用的場所。另一個場所是王宮。如果宮廷和議會的政治作用不變，人民就永遠(yuǎn)不能得到他們的權(quán)利。我們斗爭多次，但是權(quán)力仍然留在原地。巴魯華特協(xié)議明確表明權(quán)力超出議會，指出國家權(quán)力屬于革命人民。七黨和我們簽定了這個協(xié)議。我們把它稱之為一項重大的歷史性決議。當(dāng)協(xié)議被公之于眾以及我們在新聞發(fā)布會上向人民表明，我們正朝著一個新的階段前進(jìn)時，國外勢力，特別是美國突然感到非常痛苦。就在第二天，我聽到美國發(fā)表了一篇煽動性的聲明，說整個國家已經(jīng)納入了毛主義者的日程表。另外，德里因恐懼而態(tài)度冷淡。那是因為科依拉那在德里訪問期間，他們就不解散議會曾取得過共識。10天后，我們在解散議會問題上達(dá)成協(xié)議。當(dāng)?shù)吕飭査麄?，“你們做了些什么？”于是，那些實際上更加依賴外國人的政黨領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人開始在第二天早晨大嚷大叫。這就是真正的原因。在這，他們早就嘮叨，其實當(dāng)?shù)吕锖腿A盛頓開始發(fā)令時，問題就出來了。

問：There are differences between your party and the SPA. How will your party and SPA protect the past understandings? How are you proceeding?

問：在你們黨和七黨聯(lián)盟之間存在著分歧。那你們黨和七黨聯(lián)盟將如何維護(hù)過去的協(xié)議？你們?nèi)绾谓鉀Q？

答：When dissenting voices began to emerge against the agreement, a distorted agenda emerged from new quarters. We reflected that this might have happened because of the lack of homework and the hurriedness of the process. We then came back and talked intensively to the parties. We talked informally with the CPN (UML) and the NC in the Godavari resort and similarly with other parties. We tried to streamline all procedures which had gone astray. We talked with seven-eight senior leaders of the NC and UML leadership, where talks on every issue went smoothly. To avoid differences, we agreed to return the property of concerned persons by accepting a mechanism.But the major issue of politics was never resolved. While all this was going on, the Congress parliamentary party passed the resolution against the eight-point agreement. We have observed that the problem will not be resolved by talking, because the key to the problem lies somewhere else. As we said earlier at the time of Sher Bahadur Deuba, that “nothing will be resolved by talking to the servant, we need to talk to the real master”. Things are looking similar even today. We think the parties and leaders are like servants, while the masters are living abroad. That is why I announced on July 28, 2006

答：當(dāng)反對協(xié)議的不同聲音出現(xiàn)時，就會出現(xiàn)歪曲的議程。我們認(rèn)為這是由于缺乏準(zhǔn)備和處理倉促。那么我們就回來同各政黨進(jìn)行熱烈的交談。我們同尼泊爾共產(chǎn)黨（聯(lián)合馬列）以及尼泊爾大會黨在Godavari地區(qū)進(jìn)行過非正式的交談，和其他政黨也有類似的對話。我們努力糾正所有偏離的事項。我們和七、八個尼泊爾大會黨以及尼共（聯(lián)合馬列）的高級領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人交談，關(guān)于各類問題的交談都很順利。為了避免分歧，我們同意通過一定手續(xù)退還一些人的財產(chǎn)。但是，主要政治問題從來也沒有解決。當(dāng)所有這些事正在處理時，大會黨通過了一項反對8點協(xié)議的決議。我們已認(rèn)識到通過談話不能解決問題，因為問題的關(guān)鍵在另外一些地方。就象我們早些時候同德烏帕講的那樣，“同仆人談話什么也解決不了，我們需要同真正的主人談話”。事情即使在今天也一樣。我們認(rèn)為各政黨極其領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人就象仆人，而主人在國外。因此，我在2006年7月28日發(fā)布了公告。

問：You earlier talked about an October revolution, now you are appealing to the people to prepare for a peaceful movement. What message will go after this contradictory appeal?

問：您曾談到過一場十月革命，現(xiàn)在您卻在呼吁人民準(zhǔn)備一場和平運動。這樣矛盾的呼吁會傳達(dá)怎樣的信息呢？

答：What did the two of you understand from our appeal? In our understanding, when people ask us that Maoists are at the negotiation table while simultaneously preparing for a peaceful uprising, we don’t have an appropriate answer. The fact is that in its essence, it is both. We came here thinking that we will succeed in the agenda of creating a democratic republic through peaceful means and should try for this. It is not as though we came to the negotiating table with an uprising as the prime agenda. We are in the committee for the Interim Constitution and the talks committee. Our headquarters is also involved here in the political interactions for over a month-and-ahalf. On the basis of ten years of people’s war (PW), it is possible to go into peaceful transformation. The PW influenced the 12-point understanding and we can proceed to the October revolution in a peaceful way. If the parties had waited for two more days and not stalled the movement by accepting the April 24- 25, (11 Baisakh) announcement, the October revolution might have happened right then. Everyone knows that accepting the 11 Baisakh announcement was the result of a clandestine agreement between the SPA, the king and India. If the acceptance was deferred by two days, millions of people were advancing towards the Narayanhiti Palace. That momentum was there. Everyone knows that. If that process was not thwarted, the October revolution might have been heralded. It is possible to advance that process even through the people’s referendum and CA elections. We are focusing our attention on political transformation through peaceful means. However, in the end I have to say that if this government engages in a conspiracy against the people’s aspirations and if it plots with the high command of the old army, if they get intimidated by its generals, and if they want to advance and survive by being the brokers of the generals, then the Nepali people will revolt. We will be in favour of such a revolt.

答：你們兩位從我們的呼吁中理解到什么呢？我們認(rèn)為，當(dāng)人民要求我們和談而同時又準(zhǔn)備一場和平起義時，我們不能給予恰當(dāng)?shù)拇饛?fù)。事實上，兩者在本質(zhì)上是一致的。我們到這來，認(rèn)為我們會成功地通過和平方式建立民主共和國并應(yīng)該為此而努力。那并不是指我們來到談判桌前，卻帶著起義的談判方案。我們加入了臨時憲法委員會以及和談委員會。我們的指揮部也來到這里從事了一個半月的政治對話。在10年人民戰(zhàn)爭的前提下，進(jìn)行和平轉(zhuǎn)變的可能性是存在的。人民戰(zhàn)爭促成了12點協(xié)議，并且我們能夠以和平方式進(jìn)行十月革命。如果各政黨再多等兩天，而不是接受4月24日，25日的宣言，結(jié)束了人民運動，那么十月革命當(dāng)時就發(fā)生了。所有人都知道接受宣言是七黨聯(lián)盟，國王和印度之間達(dá)成秘密協(xié)議的結(jié)果。如果接受協(xié)議再推遲兩天，那么數(shù)百萬人民就會向Narayanhit王宮進(jìn)軍。當(dāng)時那種動力是有的。每個人都知道。如果運動不結(jié)束，那么十月革命就會宣布。通過全民公決和制憲會議選舉來實現(xiàn)這一進(jìn)程也是可能的。我們正在集中精力通過和平方式實現(xiàn)政治轉(zhuǎn)變。然而，最后我不得不說如果這個政府從事反對人民的陰謀活動，與舊軍隊司令部密謀，如果他們被將軍們脅迫，想作為將軍們的掮客來生存和發(fā)展，那么尼泊爾人民就會起義。我們會支持這樣的起義。

問：You accuse the seven parties, their government and the outside powers

of obstructing political transformation. They say that you and the arms

of the Maoists are the obstruction. Don’t you think you have to assure

people and other parties by agreeing to the management of your arms?

問：您譴責(zé)七黨和他們的政府以及外部勢力阻礙政治轉(zhuǎn)變。他們卻說你們和毛主義者的武裝是障礙。難道您不認(rèn)為你們只有同意管理你們的武裝，才能取得人民和政黨們信賴嗎？

答：At this moment this is being raised as the most important question. How

Nepali politics will advance, depends on this question. We do not want to put any obstacles in the path of weapons’ management. We have said, both in the 12-point understanding and the eight-point agreement, that both the armies and their arms have to be immobilised under the monitoring and cooperation of the UN. Then, keeping the mandate and spirit of the outcome of the CA

elections, we have to reorganise the armies to make one national army. We are committed to this. However, now the seven parties have moved back a little bit from this understanding, and are raising the issue of our arms as the only obstacle to the process of political transformation. Foreign powers, such as the US and its envoy James Moriarty, are presenting it as though our arms are the only problem. The central issue of whether Nepali people have reached the point of real democracy or not rests here. From 1950 to now, which was the army that on each and every occasion suppressed the people’s movement? And which was the army that played a crucial role in breaking Gyanendra’s authoritarianism and bringing the movement to this stage? If the People’s Army was not a people’s army, then the 12-point understanding would not have been possible. Showing the February municipal elections to be a sham to the world was also the work of the People’s Army. Later, the People’s Army played a critical role in ensuring the mass general strike. The People’s Army is responsible for the reinstatement of the present HoR. Or is it that the Royal Army reinstated the HoR? Despite this fact, despite our remaining flexible, despite our saying that make arrangements for the two armies, and even after the agreement reached in Baluwatar, the parties are still going back. If we decommission and disarm, and the Royal Army remains in the same position, then what will happen? What is our thinking? That only if the People’s Army exists, will the people’s movement remain secure and protected? The Royal Army, even if it tries, cannot quell the nationwide presence and stronghold of the People’s Liberation Army, with its seven divisions.

答：此時，這是最重要的問題。尼泊爾政治能夠取得多大進(jìn)步，取決于這個問題的解決。我們不想在武器管理的道路上設(shè)置任何障礙。我們已經(jīng)在12點協(xié)議和8點協(xié)議中說過，雙方的軍隊和武器必須由聯(lián)合國監(jiān)督和管理。然后，我們根據(jù)制憲會議選舉結(jié)果的要求和精神，重新把雙方的軍隊改編成一支國家軍隊。我們同意這樣做。然而，現(xiàn)在七黨違背了協(xié)議，說我方武裝是政治轉(zhuǎn)變進(jìn)程中的唯一障礙。外部勢力，如美國和他的特使詹姆斯·莫里艾地提出似乎我方的武裝是唯一的問題。關(guān)鍵問題是尼泊爾人民是否已經(jīng)認(rèn)識到真正的民主，而不是停滯在這一點上。從1950年到現(xiàn)在，是哪一支軍隊一貫地鎮(zhèn)壓人民運動？又是哪一支軍隊在擊敗賈南德拉的獨裁統(tǒng)治方面發(fā)揮了決定性的作用，并把運動發(fā)展到今天這樣的水平？如果人民軍隊不是人民軍隊，那么12點協(xié)議就不可能達(dá)成。向全世界揭露2月市政選舉這一騙局的也是人民軍隊。之后，人民軍隊又在確保人民群眾大罷工方面發(fā)揮了重要作用。人民軍隊使當(dāng)前的議會被恢復(fù)，難道議會是尼泊爾王軍恢復(fù)的嗎？不顧事實，不顧我們保持的靈活性，不顧我們提出的對雙方軍隊的管理，并且即使在巴魯華特協(xié)定達(dá)成之后，政黨們?nèi)匀辉诘雇恕Ｈ绻覀兺艘刍虮唤獬溲b，而尼泊爾王軍仍舊存在，那會帶來什么后果呢？我們在想什么呢？那就是只要人民軍隊存在，人民運動就有安全保障。尼泊爾王軍即使傾其全力，也無法消除存在于全國各地的人民解放軍要塞。

問：The fear of the parties is that how will the competition in elections between an arms-bearing party and unarmed parties be equal and fair?

問：政黨們擔(dān)心的是，擁有武裝的政黨怎么可以同沒有武裝的政黨進(jìn)行平等和公平選舉競爭呢？

答：We are saying that our weapons will be under observation of the UN.

After that, we will also not have weapons, is it not? It is not like we will seek votes bearing weapons; we will go like the other parties go. Our PLA will be in the barracks and camps under observation of the UN.

答：我們一直在強調(diào)我們的武器會由聯(lián)合國來監(jiān)管。之后，我們也是沒有武裝的政黨，不是嗎？事情并不是我們拿著武器獲取選票，我們會象其他政黨那樣行事。我們的人民解放軍會在聯(lián)合國的監(jiān)督下待在軍營里。

問：There are allegations against you of violating the 25-point code during

ceasefire. There are allegations of not returning houses and property that your party seized, of beating, abduction and continuing the collection of donation.

問：有人聲稱你們違反了25點停火協(xié)議。而且聲稱你們沒有退還沒收的房屋和財產(chǎn)，并繼續(xù)實行強迫募捐。

答：Whatever the parties are alleging on this is only pretence. If journalists and human rights activists raise this, it is might be valid. There have been some mistakes on our part, but, equally, we are working to correct these. Why I say that the parties, claims are a deception is because the parties cannot even agree to a common mechanism to solve such issues. If they had agreed to immediately move towards an interim Constitution and interim government, then automatically the people’s courts and people’s government would have been dissolved. After that if any incident took place, we would have investigated and conducted disciplinary proceedings. Whatever the parties are saying, it’s pretence. It appears that they are merely following the orders of Washington.

答：政黨們的這些斷言是虛構(gòu)的。如果記者或人權(quán)活動家提出來，那可能是真的。我們這邊也犯了些錯誤，但是，我們正在改正。為什么我說政黨的斷言是謊言呢，因為他們從來不同意由一個共同的機構(gòu)來處理這些問題。如果他們同意立刻頒布臨時憲法和成立臨時政府，那么我們的人民法庭和人民政府就會自動解散。那之后如果發(fā)生什么事件，我們會調(diào)查并按規(guī)定處理。政黨們所說的是謊言，這是他們聽從華盛頓指示的表現(xiàn)。 

（翻譯：紅石）

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